NJSBA Family Law Section

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This is a real question

  • 1.  This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 12:26 AM
    Client's spouse is transsexual, pre-op going from male to female. Surgery is imminent (this month).

    They're amicably divorcing. I'm working on a Marital Settlement Agreement.

    I usually refer to the parties as "Husband" and "Wife", which they legally are. Would this be inappropriate here? What pronoun would people use under these circumstances? Are they still Husband and Wife after the surgery?

    Thanks.

    <x-sigsep></x-sigsep>

    David Perry Davis, Esq.
    ----------------------------------------------------
    www.FamilyLawNJ.pro
    ----------------------------------------------------
    57 Hamilton Avenue -- Suite 301
    Hopewell, NJ 08525
    Voice: 609-466-1222
    Fax: 609-466-1223



  • 2.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 01:21 AM
    How about Mr T?

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 3.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 07:06 AM
    Mr. Laufer, 

    Your response is insensitive and inappropriate. 

    David, why don't you ask the parties how they would like to be referred to? 


    Christina Previte, Esq. 

    NJ DIVORCE SOLUTIONS 

    Previte Nachlinger PC

    120 Wood Avenue South

    APA Hotel Building, Suite 602

    Iselin, New Jersey 08830

    (732) 529-6937 Phone 

    www.CentralJerseyFamilyLaw.com








  • 4.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 07:33 AM
    I would go a step further and state that a transphobic and degrading comment from an attorney to a litigant is unethical.

    More to the point, I think the initial question shows that there are good intentioned people who are trying to get it "right" but aren't quite sure how.

    First, a bit of terminology: transsexual is an antiquated term. The common parlance is that you use the word "transgender" to refer to someone whose gender identity does not match their sex assigned at birth.

    Second, pronouns and their proper usage aren't tied to any sort of "surgery"--what does the client's spouse's appendectomy gave to do with anything? People can choose the pronoun they use and that people should refer to them using. It has nothing to do with what gender marker is on an identification document (like a driver's license, passport, or birth certificate). There are different requirements for changing a gender marker on various documents and, as of February of 2019 when the Babs Siperstein Law goes into effect, for folks born in NJ there's no more antiquated "surgery" requirement to change a gender marker on a N.J. birth certificate.

    Second, is there a reason WHY gendered designations need to be in your MSA and how--in 2018-have you not represented a same-sex couple who both use "husband" or "wife"? Use first names or Plaintiff/Defendant.

    Third, I appreciate that you're asking US this question but what about asking the litigant or their counsel? They know best what they call themselves and there's no need to speculate. As attorneys we have the ability to make the divorce process accessible and smooth for all types of litigants. There is a power dynamic at play: we get to set the rules and they should be fair to all. If you had a client how used an Anglicized version of their legal name, would you ask them how they'd like to be referred to in the document that would govern their interactions with their ex and their children for the rest of their lives? I hope so so just apply the same rules to LGBT people.

    Fourth, consider the LGBT Rights Section of the NJSBA a valid secondary source (after the concerned party themselves). There are a number of us who are joint members of both that Section and the family bar (I'm the chair of the LGBT Rights Section and a family lawyer). Not only can you email or call individual members like me, but we often put on CLEs on cultural competency, terms, and how to make yourself and your practice LBGT competent. We are also happy to do joint programming with the Family Law Section, have done so in the past, and I think we're about due for another. The problem is that folks who need the information don't necessarily seek it out (or put their bodies in the seats) so we are perpetuating the issues. Encourage your colleagues to educate themselves--use a buddy system and bring a friend to every CLE you attend. I'm also glad to personally welcome you at the door, provided you email me a current picture first!

    Finally, thank you for asking questions! I hope my morning response has been useful for your case. If you'd like to discuss further, please email me directly or give my office a call.

    Best

    Celeste Fiore, Esq.


    They/them/theirs


    50 Church St. Suite 106
    Montclair, NJ 07042
    973-868-0958
    973-860-0739 (fax)
    www.argentinolaw.com

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  • 5.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 08:48 AM
    That was not my response my phone was hacked   Sorry for the response 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 6.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 09:05 AM
    Thank you to my partner for calling out inappropriate comments on a professional forum.

    Big thank you to Celeste on your excellent post. I wish we could send it to all attorneys not on this forum. 

    Have a great week everyone!

    ------------------------------
    John Nachlinger Esq.
    Previte & Nachlinger, PC
    Iselin, NJ
    (732) 529-6937
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 07:56 AM
    I would refer to them by their first names.  Coffee 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 8.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 11:00 AM

    First names.  Once people divorce they are no longer wife and husband – many clients appreciate the use of their first names in the MSA.

     

     

    Amy Wechsler, Esq.

    Matrimonial Attorney, Mediator and

        Collaborative Practitioner

    908-753-3833

    908-753-4189 (fax)

    www.swldfamilylaw.com

     






  • 9.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 10:21 AM

    Bill,

      Really?? If you had nothing constructive to add, why did you respond at all?

      David's question was serious.

    Ed Zohn

     

    * * *

    Edward J. Zohn, Attorney at Law

    Zohn & Zohn, LLP; 7 Mount Bethel Road, Warren NJ 07059

    908.791.0312 office; 908.428.7988 direct; 908.660.4866 fax

    "Leges sine moribus vanae" (Laws without morals are useless) - U. of Penna. Motto

    www.zohnlaw.com

     






  • 10.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 10:29 AM

    Not my response..misunderstanding..sorry for any confusion...I never have responded to this web site.

     






  • 11.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 11:48 AM
    I think people should lighten up. It's sad when questions about pronouns become as controversial as abortion, etc..  Even the title, "This is a real question", suggests how abnormal the question is.  Some people want formerly-normal past behaviors to be criminalized in the name of sensitivity.  When this stuff becomes legislation it erodes the first amendment and allows even more government into our lives. The consequences are less freedom and fewer clients for lawyers.  Read about Bill C-16 in Canada. 


    ___________________________

    WILLIAM N. SOSIS, ESQ.
    SOSIS LAW, LLC
    Rochelle Park Municipal Complex
    151 West Passaic Street, 2nd Floor
    Rochelle Park, New Jersey 07662
    Tel: (201) 655-6400
    Fax: (201) 781-7855






  • 12.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 09:27 AM
    I prefer to use first names in most agreements.  

    Anna-Maria Pittella
    Sent from my iPhone
    Without errors I hope






  • 13.  RE: This is a real question

    Posted 09-10-2018 09:29 AM
    In a recent same-sex divorce I used plaintiff and defendant