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The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

  • 1.  The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 07:44 AM
    I read this morning that one of the deductions that they are planning to eliminate is the alimony deduction. Did anyone else see that? Would that mean that alimony is no longer tax deductible to the payor, but would it still be taxable to the payee? That would not make sense but if its treated like child support and not taxable or tax deductible then where does that leave people that settled their cases based upon the premise that they can deduct alimony? Or maybe I just read that wrong, anyone else?

    I know its a long way from passing and a lot can change but that just stuck out in the article.

    Gerri Duswalt

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT, ESQ.
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  • 2.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 07:53 AM
    There is also a provision that indicates alimony received is no longer taxable. So, under the proposed bill alimony would be treated the same as child support. 


    Brian G. Paul, Esq.
    Certified Matrimonial Attorney
    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 smartphone





  • 3.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 07:56 AM
    That is what I thought, but what happens to the people currently paying alimony that negotiated their deal based upon the premise that alimony would be tax deductible and how do we settle cases now that we do not know if it will be?  Seems unfair because unlike child support alimony shifts the family income from higher earner to lower earner so should be treated like income.

    Gerri Duswalt

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT, ESQ.
    ATTORNEY AT LAW
    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, N.J. 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036

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    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community, family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills and general litigation.

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  • 4.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 07:59 AM
    There will be a lot of post-judgment change in circumstance or R. 4:50-1 motions for us to file. 

    Brian G. Paul, Esq.
    Certified Matrimonial Attorney
    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 smartphone





  • 5.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:13 AM
    From what I've read it only applies to alimony paid pursuant to its decree after December 31st 2017 



    Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S8+, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone





  • 6.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:15 AM
    But would it apply only to new cases?  If it applies to all alimony paid after Dec 31 2017 then it still would impact people that settled their cases based upon the presumption that they would be able to deduct the alimony

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT, ESQ.
    ATTORNEY AT LAW
    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, N.J. 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036

    Telephone:    (908) 322-5160
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    E-mail:          [email protected]
                        [email protected]
    Web Site:      www.duswaltlawfirm.com

    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community, family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills and general litigation.

    This e-mail and any documents accompanying this e-mail may contain information from the law office of Geraldene Sherr Duswalt, Esq. that is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named in this e-mail transaction and which may be confidential, privileged or attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender at once.






  • 7.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 04:06 PM
    The problem is that it disadvantages dependent spouses as we got more family income by moving funds from higher tax bracket to two lower ones. The proposal takes it out of pocket of those that can least afford it

    Barbara Ulrichsen
    Ulrichsen Rosen & Freed
    114 Titus Mill Rd. 
    Unit 200
    Pennington, NJ 08534
    609-730-3850 x 1950





  • 8.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 04:20 PM





  • 9.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 03:56 PM
    I heard it applied only to post 2017 orders

    Barbara Ulrichsen
    Ulrichsen Rosen & Freed
    114 Titus Mill Rd. 
    Unit 200
    Pennington, NJ 08534
    609-730-3850 x 1950





  • 10.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 04:02 PM
    That is my understanding as well.  It is prospective.  

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 11.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 04:20 PM
    Further down this thread, someone said it is supposed too apply to any agreement signed after 11/1/17, 2 days ago.






  • 12.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:21 AM

    It appears that the alimony deduction would be eliminated under this bill for all agreements reached after November 1, 2017 - which could be a moving target.  All prior deals would stand, which makes no sense for IRS reviewers, other than if you deducted in 2016, you can deduct going into the future - but honestly - they are going to review that?


    Also, this makes it impossible, in my view, to settle or try any case from now until either passage and enactment of a tax reform measure or what might look like a permanent abandonment of the effort.  We simply don't know what they will do.


    My final question on this is how can the tax code treat one tax payer so differently from another simply based on the date of the marital settlement agreement.  Alimony is an obligation of state law and there is a wealth of tax court law that gives deference to the tax treatment or intent of state law and state judgment obligations.  I can't see this effort to save money on the backs of individuals in order to fund the permanent elimination of the estate tax and the permanent reduction of the corporate tax to be fair or possibly constitutional  - they could have just said all alimony payments under X dollars per year remain deductible and any portion above is no longer deductible - but, gosh, that would mean only wealthier people would get the hit...


    Deb Guston

    President, Academy of Adoption & Assisted Reproduction Attorneys



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  • 13.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 09:22 AM

    I agree with Deb. If the idea is to "simplify the tax code," they just complicated the tax law, as it will likely result in lots of tax court litigation. If the idea is to increase tax (presumably to give a higher tax break to the wealthy and corporations) it will not go far to accomplish that, but will merely shift who pays the tax. Badly thought through.

     

    C. Megan Oltman

    Oltman Law & Mediation

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  • 14.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:39 AM
    Frank is correct. If passed, the new provision would apply to decrees or agreements entered after December 31, 2017, or any modifications of earlier agreements/decrees where it expressly indicates that the new tax law making it non-taxable and non-tax deductible is to apply.

    Here is the language from the proposed Act:

    effective date

    ------------------------------
    Brian G. Paul, Esq.
    Certified Matrimonial Law Attorney
    Szaferman, Lakind, Blumstein & Blader, P.C.
    101 Grovers Mill Road
    Lawrenceville, New Jersey 08648
    Phone: 609-275-0400
    Direct Fax: 609-779-6065
    [email protected]
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 08:41 AM
    I agree that it is going to be hard to settle cases until we know if this is going to pass, perhaps we put in language that the alimony would be one amount if continues to be tax deductible but another if it is not, and then provision that the parties need to cooperate to amend the USSO order if its being garnished? Thoughts?

    Gerri Duswalt

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT, ESQ.
    ATTORNEY AT LAW
    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, N.J. 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036

    Telephone:    (908) 322-5160
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    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community, family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills and general litigation.

    This e-mail and any documents accompanying this e-mail may contain information from the law office of Geraldene Sherr Duswalt, Esq. that is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named in this e-mail transaction and which may be confidential, privileged or attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender at once.






  • 16.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 09:37 AM

    Hi all.  So what if I have a fully executed PSA prior to Dec 31, 2017, but the JOD isn't entered until Jan. 2018? Trying to keep the alimony taxable. Wondering if both the PSA and JOD need to be executed/entered prior to Dec. 31. Thoughts??? 

    Christine N Rossi, Esq. 
    Sent from my iPhone





  • 17.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 09:39 AM

    I have that exact issue right now – they are waiting for January / February, due to joint tax return one final time. I am hoping that if agreement signed by parties already, results would be respected, but my guess this will need to be clarified within a modified bill or litigated, and depending on the results of litigated, my guess if I have 1 client with this game plan, and I am a solo, there will be 100s of modification filings in the coming 6-12 months.

     

    Thanks,


    Jason Flynn, Esq.
    Law Offices of Jason I. Flynn LLC

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  • 18.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 03:50 PM
    So, real world effect here, assuming this monstrosity passes (no one's discussed / lamented the end of Head of Household status and that it's going to increase the tax burden on 51% of single parents, but I don't know what there is to say about that aside from how I fail to see how further stressing the budgets of single parents makes America great again).


    I'd be interested in hearing how others would handle the change on alimony taxability / deductibility. I think we'd find the midway point between what alimony would've cost that payor after deductibility and what the recipient would've benefited after paying taxes on it.

    For example, I have a case right now in mediation where we're discussing an obligation of $2700 per month. Instead of $2700 per month, we'd reach a midway point between the approximate amount that would have cost him after deducting it ($1,850ish) and what she would've benefited after paying taxes on it ($2,200ish) - $2,000? The problem, of course, is that we're using "rough numbers", guesstimating what the tax benefit (33-35% of amount paid) and tax hit (15-18%) are to both parties.

    Is that the outline of how others will approach the issue?


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    David Perry Davis, Esq.
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  • 19.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 05:18 PM
    If the deductibility of alimony is omitted from the tax code, why bother calculating before and after tax effect.  We use that mechanization to get an alimony deal done in settlement especially when the payor does not want to pay. Now it is irrelevant. Alimony without taxability or tax deductibility will no longer be a factor.

    Alice M. Plastoris, Esq.
    (973) 538-7070
    Sent from my iPad

    THIS IS A CONFIDENTIAL ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION.





  • 20.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-04-2017 02:14 AM
    But...NJ still allows so you'd have to agree not to claim and only use fed adj gross

    ================================
    Debra E. Guston, Esq.

    President - Academy Adoption & Assisted Reproduction Attorneys 

    201-447-6660 w
    201-417-8252 c





  • 21.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-05-2017 03:48 PM

    Congrats!

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  • 22.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-04-2017 08:59 AM
    But the other issue will be the presumptions in the amount of alimony, if the purpose is to equalize to some degree the family income after the divorce, then the amounts necessarily have to be lower, so the "rule of thumb" starting point for the discussion would also have to be lower if the payment is not taxable and tax deductible.

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT, ESQ.
    ATTORNEY AT LAW
    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, N.J. 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036

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    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community, family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills and general litigation.

    This e-mail and any documents accompanying this e-mail may contain information from the law office of Geraldene Sherr Duswalt, Esq. that is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named in this e-mail transaction and which may be confidential, privileged or attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender at once.






  • 23.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-04-2017 09:10 AM
    I searched the text of the full bill for the term "alimony" and it only appears three times - 1) reference in the index, 2) to say that  section 215 allowing it as a deduction is to be deleted, and 3) to say that the section 51 requiring it as an inclusion to income is deleted. 

    It says nothing about how it is actually implemented.  

    My understanding is that if a tax law is passed, Treasury (IRS) drafts the actual regulations that will dictate how the new law would be applied. 


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  • 24.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-04-2017 09:25 AM
    The prior post indicating the bill "says nothing about how it is actually implemented" is incorrect.

     As posted several times earlier in this thread, the proposed bill specifically says at page 125, line 16:

     (c)  EFFECTIVE DATE --  The amendments made by this section shall apply to ----

            (1)  any divorce or separation instrument (as defined in section 71(b)(2) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 as in effect before the date of the enactment of this Act) executed after December 31, 2017, and

            (2)   any divorce or separation instrument (as so defined) executed on or before such date and modified after such date if the modification expressly provides that the amendments made by this section apply to such modification.

    ------------------------------
    Brian G. Paul, Esq.
    Certified Matrimonial Law Attorney
    Szaferman, Lakind, Blumstein & Blader, P.C.
    101 Grovers Mill Road
    Lawrenceville, New Jersey 08648
    Phone: 609-275-0400
    Direct Fax: 609-779-6065
    [email protected]
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-16-2017 07:49 AM
    Here is my question then -   for agreements currently being negotiated I would like to put in the dollar amount that the alimony would be if taxable and then the dollar amount if not (most people at this point want to wait till Jan to put the case through so they can file joint returns).  So for example - if I have a Husband with 122,000 and a wife with 30,000.00, based on some issues not relevant here they agreed to 31,000 yearly (slightly more than 1/3 of the difference).

    If that becomes no longer tax deductible then would it be reasonable to reduce it to 23,280 (reducing it by 25 percent)?  Of am I not looking at this correctly?  Seems like depending on what version gets passed, she might be in the 15 percent and he could be 28 percent or they could both be in the 25 percent.  I would hate to just leave it open to determination if it passes because then what if they don't agree and if probation, there has to be a new USSO order.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks
    Gerri

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT, ESQ.
    ATTORNEY AT LAW
    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, N.J. 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036

    Telephone:    (908) 322-5160
    Fax:              (908) 654-3970
    E-mail:          [email protected]
                        [email protected]
    Web Site:      www.duswaltlawfirm.com

    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community, family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills and general litigation.

    This e-mail and any documents accompanying this e-mail may contain information from the law office of Geraldene Sherr Duswalt, Esq. that is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named in this e-mail transaction and which may be confidential, privileged or attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender at once.






  • 26.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-16-2017 09:22 AM

    Gerri,

      It may not be that simple.

      Please remember that all tax brackets are marginal tax brackets. That is, if you are in the 25% bracket your next dollar is taxed at 25%. But much of your income is taxed at lower rates, especially if you are broadly defined as "middle class."

      To map the "1/3 of the difference between incomes" to new tax rules would require picking apart tax effects at each bracket and then adding them up-for both parties.

      Perhaps it's time to jettison the "1/3 of the difference between incomes" fake guideline and go back to basics, i.e. the factors identified in the alimony law for need and ability to pay.

    Ed

     

    * * *

    Edward J. Zohn, Attorney at Law

    Zohn & Zohn, LLP; 7 Mount Bethel Road, Warren NJ 07059

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  • 27.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 04:23 PM
    I will re-post this since people apparently missed it the first time around:

    Frank is correct. If passed, the new provision would apply to decrees or agreements entered after December 31, 2017, or any modifications of earlier agreements/decrees where it expressly indicates that the new tax law making it non-taxable and non-tax deductible is to apply.

    Here is the language from the proposed Act:

    effective date

    ------------------------------
    Brian G. Paul, Esq.
    Certified Matrimonial Law Attorney
    Szaferman, Lakind, Blumstein & Blader, P.C.
    101 Grovers Mill Road
    Lawrenceville, New Jersey 08648
    Phone: 609-275-0400
    Direct Fax: 609-779-6065
    [email protected]
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 09:12 AM
    Under the plan, alimony, as of 1/1/18, would be neither deductible nor taxable. It would be tax neutral, like child support. Are we ready for a wave of post judgment modification applications? And what about those MSAs with non-modifiable alimony provisions?

    Sincerely,

    Madeline Marzano-Lesnevich

    Madeline Marzano-Lesnevich
    President-Elect, American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers 
    Diplomate American College of Family Trial Lawyers
    Fellow, International Academy of Family Lawyers
    Certified Matrimonial Law Attorney by the Supreme Court of New Jersey
    Lesnevich, Marzano-Lesnevich, Trigg, O'Cathain & O'Cathain, LLC
    21 Main Street, Suite 250
    Hackensack, NJ  07601
    P(201) 488-1161; F(201) 488-1162
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  • 29.  RE: The GOP tax plan and how it would impact alimony

    Posted 11-03-2017 09:21 AM
    If the GOP tax bill passes as written, the change would affect divorces carried out after December 31. So it wouldn't affect anyone already paying alimony.

    Chuck