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Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

  • 1.  Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-24-2017 12:29 PM
    I've been a solo since I clerked in 1996-1997. I've often entertained the idea of applying to firms and am doing so again. The primary benefits seem to be having other attorneys to help handle matters would make it a lot easier to work on a case that requires a lot of attention without the constant interruptions ("this will just take 10 minutes" and then the day is gone and the larger project didn't get attention), resulting need for adjournments, conflicts in scheduling, and not having to handle all the administrative headaches (and time) of running an office, doing billing and collections, dealing with office suppliers, etc. Although this and a couple of other lists make up for it to some degree, it would also be nicer to have people in the office to discuss cases with (and vent to and listen to vents from), ask and answer questions, etc. I assume billing / salary is generally handled as keeping a percentage of what's brought in and that (unlike a state job, the other thing I've thought of), there wouldn't be a great concern if flexibility with hours (due to parenting, etc) was required so long as enough are put in.

    Aside from working as a paralegal before going to law school at a mega-firm (which I know is out), I don't I don't see the downsides, but there must be some I'm not seeing as the majority of changes I've seen have been people working at firms going out on their own, not the other way around. I've also seen a lot of even two-partner firms break up and people going solo rather than the other way around. I remember office politics and seeing people (especially new associates) under crushing stress to bill and not make any mistakes at the mega-firm (which is why I wouldn't thinking about it), but what are the other downsides?

    Are there others other there who went from solo to joining a firm and are glad they did? As said, I'm giving it more serious thought than I ever have - I can't be the only one wondering.

    Any responses (on-list or off) would be appreciated. Thanks.


    <x-sigsep>

    David Perry Davis, Esq.
    ----------------------------------------------------
       www.FamilyLawNJ.pro
    ----------------------------------------------------
    112 West Franklin Avenue
    Pennington, NJ 08534
    Voice: 609-737-2222
    Fax:    609-737-3222

    </x-sigsep>


  • 2.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-24-2017 01:13 PM
    Remember:  as a solo your time is your time!  Too busy, take in less volume, hire per diem, etc.  You make your hours & do the work you want to.  Ah, but having others around to cover also gives you the ability to take time off.  And perhaps, a steadier pay check.  And better benefits.  But someone always looking over your shoulder and the need to make "rain". 
     
     
     
    DAVID MOLK, Esq.
    71 Mount Vernon Street
    Ridgefield Park, New Jersey  07660
    (201) 440-3400; Fax (201) 440-4347
     
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    On 04/24/17, David Perry Davis via New Jersey State Bar Association<>org> wrote:
     
    I've been a solo since I clerked in 1996-1997. I've often entertained the idea of applying to firms and am doing so again. The primary benefits...

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    Apr 24, 2017 12:29 PM
    David Perry Davis, Esq
    I've been a solo since I clerked in 1996-1997. I've often entertained the idea of applying to firms and am doing so again. The primary benefits seem to be having other attorneys to help handle matters would make it a lot easier to work on a case that requires a lot of attention without the constant interruptions ("this will just take 10 minutes" and then the day is gone and the larger project didn't get attention), resulting need for adjournments, conflicts in scheduling, and not having to handle all the administrative headaches (and time) of running an office, doing billing and collections, dealing with office suppliers, etc. Although this and a couple of other lists make up for it to some degree, it would also be nicer to have people in the office to discuss cases with (and vent to and listen to vents from), ask and answer questions, etc. I assume billing / salary is generally handled as keeping a percentage of what's brought in and that (unlike a state job, the other thing I've thought of), there wouldn't be a great concern if flexibility with hours (due to parenting, etc) was required so long as enough are put in.

    Aside from working as a paralegal before going to law school at a mega-firm (which I know is out), I don't I don't see the downsides, but there must be some I'm not seeing as the majority of changes I've seen have been people working at firms going out on their own, not the other way around. I've also seen a lot of even two-partner firms break up and people going solo rather than the other way around. I remember office politics and seeing people (especially new associates) under crushing stress to bill and not make any mistakes at the mega-firm (which is why I wouldn't thinking about it), but what are the other downsides?

    Are there others other there who went from solo to joining a firm and are glad they did? As said, I'm giving it more serious thought than I ever have - I can't be the only one wondering.

    Any responses (on-list or off) would be appreciated. Thanks.


    David Perry Davis, Esq.
    ----------------------------------------------------
       www.FamilyLawNJ.pro
    ----------------------------------------------------
    112 West Franklin Avenue
    Pennington, NJ 08534
    Voice: 609-737-2222
    Fax:    609-737-3222

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  • 3.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-24-2017 05:17 PM
    I have often wondered the same thing.  Join a firm?  Work for the state?  Being a solo is all of the headaches you mentioned and I find I really don't make a lot of money, after the overhead is done.   But you can't beat the flexibility.  I choose what I work at and right now, I've transitioned to mostly an appellate practice.  Also, I've spent the last ten years helping to care for aging parents (two of whom died last year) and I also have a disabled sister in a group home.  If I worked for a firm I never would be able to take the time I did to handle these things.  I also volunteer in the community, I am the Board President for a non-profit that provides education and therapies for disabled children.  I am sure I wouldn't be doing that if I was working for a firm.  So you just evaluate the pluses and minuses and figure out what works best for you.

    ------------------------------
    Law Office of
    Clara S. Licata, Esq.
    700 Godwin Ave., Suite 210
    Midland Park, NJ 07432
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  • 4.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-24-2017 05:40 PM
    I would consider joining a firm as a partner but I do not think I would ever work as an employee again.  Being able to be part of the decision making process and having my income tied to my work is a huge motivator for me.  Also of all the things I've learned about myself since being solo the most surprising is how easy a time I've had getting clients.  It probably helps that I do mostly contingency fee work at this point.

    I don't do family law anymore though so I'm not even sure why I'm on this message board.  Interesting question though and I'd love to hear  others take as well.






  • 5.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-24-2017 06:10 PM
    It is a great thread, I also sometimes think it would be nice to do something else, it is stressful and sometimes exhausting. There is no one else to help and it would be nice to have the camaraderie of an office environment. However, when you work for a firm and have the billable hours to chase there is not much camaraderie because everyone is too busy trying to bill their hours.  When I worked for a firm that represented unions and there was no billable's it was much better, like a real company. We had lunch together, the bosses would sometimes just stop and chat with us, or take us to lunch. We would take a break and get some coffee and the bosses and secretaries and everyone spoke to each other like they were equally just people, it was really a nice fun place to work. Then I went to another firm that did litigation and billable hours and it was so different. No one every had lunch and no one really talked everyone was too busy billing. If you went on vacation for a week, your monthly billable hours needed to be the same so you had to make up those 50 hours in the remaining three weeks which really was impossible and so you really never had vacation.  They expected you to stay until at least 8 or 9 and work most weekends, and they did not pay like the big firms paid so it was even worse. The partners had a separate bathroom and they treated the support staff like servants. 
     
    For all the stress, I could never work for a firm again. I hated practicing until I went out on my own, and now although I don't love it all, and sometimes get stressed and overwhelmed, I like what I do and mostly feel like I help people, I make a difference in their lives and that makes me feel like my work matters. Also, the fact that after overhead, the profits, however meager, are mine to keep. It makes the hard work seem like it pays off - work harder and make more money. when you work for a firm, you work harder and someone else makes more money and you have to hope that they pass some down. Even if you bring in the client and get a percentage its not the same. Plus i get to work from home when my kids are home, and if I need to take days off, or work early mornings on weekends before they get up or when they are out with their friends, I can still be there when they need me. I can take vacation when I want without counting up the days and if i want to work remotely at some other place for a day or two I can do that too.  Its so much better I cannot ever imagine working for someone else again.  I have been on my own since 1998. 
     
    Gerri Duswalt
     

    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT
    ATTORNEY AT LAW

    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, New Jersey 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036


    Telephone: (908) 322-5160
    Facsimile: (908) 654-3970
    E-mail: [email protected]
    [email protected]

    Web Site: www.duswaltlawfirm.com


    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community; family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills, general litigation.



    This e-mail and any documents accompanying this e-mail may contain information from the law office of Geraldene Sherr Duswalt, Esq. that is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named in this e-mail transmission and which may be confidential, privileged or attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender at once.

     





  • 6.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 11:52 AM
    The downside with being a solo is that there is a limit on the amount of work you can take on and thus the amount of money you can make.  However, at this stage of my life with a teenager and pre-teen I need the flexibility of a solo practice.  That is the biggest upside to solo practice...Flexibility.  All the other negatives you state are true but those negatives are  manageable if you take on a laser like focus on choosing which matters to take on. Maybe when my kids are both finished with high school I would consider joining a practice or go back to working in a firm. 

    Angela

    ------------------------------
    [Angela Barker
    Law Office of Angela Barker, LLC
    [www.angelabarkerlaw.com
    646-415-8883
    646-395-9562 (fax)
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 12:01 PM
    I have spent my entire career with the same firm. It is all about the chemistry. As Rudyard Kipling wrote, "The strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack".

    ------------------------------
    Michael A. Gill, Esq.
    660 New Road
    Northfield, N.J. 08225
    609-646-0222
    www.gmslaw.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 01:41 PM
    I agree, that has been the biggest benefit for me. I feel that my kids had the benefit of a stay at home mom but yet I have a full time practice. When they were younger I did not take on as much work and when they reached the age that they no longer required child care, that made a big difference. Mine are in high school, but I still try to work from home in the afternoons to be around for them although they barely notice from the time it takes to get from the front door to their bedrooms, yet I am still glad to be there and I am still able to volunteer at the high school and drive the younger one to practice in the afternoon.  My thought was that when they are both away at college I will hire one or two paralegal's in addition to my secretary to work with me so that I can take on more work, delegate and supervise more, and make more money without giving up my autonomy. 
     
    GERALDENE SHERR DUSWALT
    ATTORNEY AT LAW

    Admitted in New York and New Jersey

    1812 Front Street
    Scotch Plains, New Jersey 07076

    576 Fifth Avenue, Suite 903
    New York, N.Y. 10036


    Telephone: (908) 322-5160
    Facsimile: (908) 654-3970
    E-mail: [email protected]
    [email protected]

    Web Site: www.duswaltlawfirm.com


    General practice of law serving the legal needs of the community; family and matrimonial law, bankruptcy, real estate, wills, general litigation.



    This e-mail and any documents accompanying this e-mail may contain information from the law office of Geraldene Sherr Duswalt, Esq. that is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named in this e-mail transmission and which may be confidential, privileged or attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender at once.
     





  • 9.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 01:57 PM
    Same for me.  I have two in college and a high school junior looking at colleges.  Working for myself - and also as of counsel to another firm - has given me the flexibility I've needed over the past years to be there for my kids (including when one of them had cancer) until they could drive themselves (we're oh so close with #3!) while also developing my client base and family law practice. I thought about moving to an established firm full time after #3 enters college to bring in a steady paycheck and possibly more money but in all honesty I don't think I could work for anyone after all these years of autonomy.  Having friendships with other lawyers - even making friends with adversaries - has been key not only in developing professionally but also in creating a referral network... Having sole practitioners available in local areas around NJ is really important for those people (potential clients) out there who shy away from the larger firms...     

    --
    ELIZABETH VENGEN

    Elizabeth Vengen, Esq., L.L.C.
    Tel. (908) 310-7403
    Fax (973) 697-1599


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  • 10.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 04:27 PM
    I have enjoyed reading all of the posts on this subject.. I have been a solo practitioner for 40 years and while some years have been more difficult than others I would never have changed my decision to go solo. I started in a little 9x12 room with a secretary in the same room to where I am now in an office condo I own. I have been able to tale part in all of my children's activities and have also done many things with my wife. I think that having clerked for a rather large firm taught me that I never wanted to work for someone else. I do disagree with one of the posts which indicates that by being a solo it limits the amount of money you can make. I do not agree but I do feel that  it depends on the type of work you and how you spend your time.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Raiken Esq.
    Montville NJ
    (973) 808-2003
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 06:26 PM
    These posts have been excellent. I was a paralegal at a mega-firm and knew / know that's not what I'm looking for. Politics, more stress than being a solo, etc.

    What I'd pictured was that one would agree to bill a certain amount of hours and would get paid a percentage of the collected billings. Some number agreed to as a minimum to cover the overheard costs, with a percentage split - something like (almost random, not thought out) 25% of collected billings up to 80 hours per month, 40% of the next 40, 50% of the next 20, etc. That way, whoever is covering the overhead has enough coming in to cover the support staff, rent, malpractice insurance, medical insurance, office supplies, advertising (etc etc) and if one is bringing in more / in excess of the overhead, there would be more sharing of the income. Those owning / running the firm would likewise do better if one is more productive, but they get the headaches and administrative responsibilities. Is that not how it works?

    I'd imagined the same level of flexibility -- what does it matter if one takes a child to school (etc) and gets in at 9:30 if they stay until 7:00 p.m. (or have a school play to attend, etc) so long as at least XX hours get billed out per month? The only stressor I'd thought of was tilting at windmills - civil rights cases and such (if I get in Kavadas, it'll be the first time - after having prevailed in 4 or 5 ... Pasqua being the largest). Those were some lean months with no guarentee (to say the least) of payment, but a lot of hours involved and the "doing the right thing" aspect. And the occasional pro bono case to do the right thing (I'm talking about intentionally pro bono, not the work we all do not realizing it'll be "pro bono").

    Thanks again for the comments - a lot to think about, especially if it doesn't work as I thought it did.


    <x-sigsep>

    David Perry Davis, Esq.
    -------------------------------------------
       www.FamilyLawNJ.pro
    -------------------------------------------
    112 West Franklin Avenue
    Pennington, NJ 08534
    Voice: 609-737-2222
    Fax:    609-737-3222

    </x-sigsep>





  • 12.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 07:03 PM

    David,

     

    I have heard of many arrangements similar to that you suggest below. Some are successful, some are not. Usually smaller size firms. However, what you are basically setting up is a small partnership agreement, with expense / revenue allocation. Someone can be the "managing" partner and take responsibility, for a larger cut of revenue / profit, but it is a partnership. Perhaps if there was a base salary and %, like below, above certain benchmark revenues / hours, it becomes more of an employee / employer relationship, IMO.

     

    Why could this fail? When you work for yourself, and you take on the "public policy" effort at a low-bono or pro-bono rate, decide to take two vacations in a quarter, or extended weekends in the summer, it is on you, for you and your family. When there is someone that is covering the bulk of the "headache" and overhead burden, hoping to capitalize on you when you hit X target, and even more at Y target, it could lead to turbulence and friction when it becomes habitual setup.

     

    Bottom line, it can work, with the right attitude, work ethic and mix of people. Perhaps some 6-month or 12-month review of the number allocations over the first 24-48 months. Sunset provisions in allocation tables, or preset adjustments based on over / under performance in hours / revenue, etc. Just trying to think of approaches to avoid that conflict 6 or 12 months in to the experiment.

     

    For me, the autonomy to coach and / or attend 4-10 youth teams a year, be at each one of my children's school functions, travel with family, take extended weekends when the weather is nice is worth the autonomy and flexibility. I don't have to answer to anyone on hours, realization rate on billable, etc. Yes, if I spend 16 days in Israel with family and 5-days in the DR with the Wife, 2 months apart, billable and revenue make take a slight dip for a bit, but the balance and exchange for complete personal autonomy is golden.

     

    Two other quick thoughts:

    1. I have attended formal networking groups and even started my own small networking group. Just because I am a "solo" does not mean I don't have various colleagues who are the go to person to bounce something off of when I am handling an 'insert X' matter, or partner with if the client needs a divorce coupled with a bankruptcy / immigration / FILL IN BLANK attorney [once it was IP joint-client]. It is not too different than a larger firm, in which one fellow is the account manager and main client contact, but one department handles one discipline and their colleagues other discipline needs of the client. Even when there is no need for a joint client matter, we developed a network we can run ideas and seek guidance from, as needed, etc. One group we even have setup our own private "yahoo e-mail" list, very similar to this forum.
    2. I have had matters or potential matters in which something rubbed me the wrong way at the initial consultation or at some other juncture. I can make a determination ethically, morally or JUST BECAUSE, this is not a file / client I want to be involved with at this time. If someone down the hall is paying my health insurance, PLI, office rent, supplies, would they want to have a say in those decisions. What happens if we disagree? When on the fence or unsure to get involved or not, once again, I will call a colleague or two and discuss [without naming PC of course]. On one occasion, I even used the ethics hotline before deciding to not take on the PC. But, ultimately, I am in control.

     

    Hope this is somewhat helpful.

     

    Thanks,


    Jason Flynn, Esq.
    Law Offices of Jason I. Flynn LLC
    77 Milltown Road – Suite C-6
    East Brunswick, New Jersey 08816
    (732) 210-2317 Office
    (201) 293-0445 Fax
    (201) 247-7667 Cell
    [email protected]
    www.jasonflynnlaw.com

     






  • 13.  RE: Firm v. solo - upsides and downsides

    Posted 04-25-2017 09:06 PM
    David:

    Have you thought about hiring an attorney per diem to work on a larger project that needs but doesn't get attention, help prepare motions and other documents or make court appearances?

    I have been providing per diem services to solos for years, helping them to handle matters, take time off and lighten their load. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.


    ------------------------------
    Lauren E. Caesar, Esq.
    Law Office of Lauren E. Caesar, LLC
    1070-H Highway 34, #123
    Matawan, NJ 07747
    phone - (732) 784-3230
    fax - (732) 862-8800
    [email protected]
    www.caesarlaw.com
    ------------------------------