Family Law

Jim Dandy

  • 1.  Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 02:56 PM

    Okay... Here's a nice little final exam question:

    Wife has day job and writes children's books as a hobby. She's never gotten any published, but is trying, so far unsuccessfully. Getting divorced. Husband makes a claim to ED to essentially the inchoate value. She has written ten and she has never had a book published previously. Every book was, however, written within the four corners of the 30 year long marriage. No marital funds were used, except for paper, toner cartridges envelopes, toll calls and postage.

    This is not an actual case, but an academic one. What happens next?

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  • 2.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 03:14 PM

    I would treat this under active/passive analysis. The books won't sell or generate anything unless she actively pursues publication. They have no value now but might if she makes it happen. So, he gets nothing now and she should receive them free and clear.

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  • 3.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 03:23 PM

    Respectfully... I really don't know if it's all that clear cut. I am a sculptor (this is just one of a myriad of competing arguments, and there are many). I am a lawyer in my day job. I have a bunch of very nice figurines in my basement. I've never sold any. They are nice, though. My wife likes them and thinks they are wonderful (although she definitely hates my guts and wants me dead). She claims to own 50% of them, since I crafted them during our 30 year marriage whilst she watched TV on her own to pass what would have been our alone time. An appraiser comes in and says some are ornamental at one range of value, and others are actually collectable at another approximate range of value. Wouldn't that be subject to ED? This hypo is a lot like a Zen Koan. I don't believe it is that simple, but that's just me. Appreciate everyone's thoughts, since it's just a thought piece, but it really could come up.

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  • 4.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 03:51 PM
    I would say that they are equitable, they were produce and accumulated during the marriage.  Just like any business or hobby.  I do not believe at all that he would have a 50/50 split. I would treat it like a business.  Anything written after divorce would be hers alone unless of course the books were character driven. Just a penny for my thoughts. 

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  • 5.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 03:51 PM

    I had this is in a case several years ago. My client wrote science fiction novels but had never published anything. Her husband wanted a piece of the action. We ended up settling that if, as and when she ever saw a dime of profit from her work, he would get a small percentage (I forget the exact amount). As of this writing, she still hasn't published anything, more's the pity. I agree it's not a cut and dried issue.

     

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  • 6.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:30 PM

    Fact is that there's no reported or unreported cases that I can identify even close to this issue. It is extremely far from cut and dry. It is not statuary. It is most akin to potentially a Harry Potter or a Beatles tune (know about them, millennials? - always have to ask) that has 1) yet to be published; and 2) with no previous like publications. Rothman 2nd and 3rd prongs are seriously in Limbo, and likely to settle in most cases. So... What happens next in a tired case. Give me your takes. This is quite interesting to me anyway.

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  • 7.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:47 PM

    What happens next in a tired case should be a nap. The reason I was okay with that settlement in the case I had was because it seemed "fair and equitable under all the circumstances of the case." Other cases will vary factually, obviously, but I thought a judge easily could reached the same conclusion given all the equities.

     

    Forgot to add last time: go Jim Dandy, go Jim Dandy!!

     

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  • 8.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:53 PM
    Interesting, indeed. He can court the publishers, but I'm not sure any of them would publish the books without the writer's explicit permission. It then turns out to be more of an IP law question, in that case.





  • 9.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:00 PM

    Because the effort used to create them occurred during the marriage, I say the value of the books is certainly "in the pot."  However, if she actively attempted to get them published only after the marriage was over, she would certainly be entitled to a much bigger piece of the royalty pie.  

    Similar to a bonus paid sometime after the divorce complaint is filed, but based on performance during the marriage, the compensation received for her work is certainly subject to E.D. 

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  • 10.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:39 PM
    In this case, the property (aka the books) was acquired (or written, rather) during the marriage BUT the books were not published during the marriage. Therefore, I think the books are subject to ED. So, I say give him a copy of all of the books for his reading pleasure. Or, the wife should retain the copies, and give him the originals (depending on where & how they are stored: comp, actual print, etc.) 

    That being said, he doesn't get any royalty for anything subsequently published as nothing was published during the marriage, despite her efforts. 

    If she eventually ends up publishing the books, he still doesn't get anything, just the copies/originals he retained. He also gets the value, if any, of having one of the first editions/drafts she ever created. That has to be worth something if she turns out to be JK Rowling, no? I would at least argue it that way if she was my client.

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  • 11.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:45 PM

    This is why I find this to be such an interesting hypo. Okay... let's assume they both own the unpublished children's books. Can he court publishers?

    ------------------------------
    Curtis Romanowski Esq.
    Senior Attorney - Proprietor
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    (732)603-8585



  • 12.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 05:18 PM

    Such fun... and so with Harry Potter. Books take a long time (unless they are mine or endorsed by Oprah) to make any money. Rothman: Value; How? Rothman: Distribution; How much? Wild thing, no?

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    Senior Attorney - Proprietor
    Metuchen NJ
    (732)603-8585



  • 13.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 05:31 PM

    A patent is less inchoate than an unpublished book, although it is copyrighted when mailed with the (c) symbol. Also, the per se copyright costs nothing from marital assets, and the patent arguably does, if the lawyer (if any) was paid for with joint marital funds. This is a potentially complicated issue because the valuation piece is insanely speculative, while the fact that these kids books were 100% written during the marriage is undisputed.

    ------------------------------
    Curtis Romanowski Esq.
    Senior Attorney - Proprietor
    Metuchen NJ
    (732)603-8585



  • 14.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 04:55 PM

    I have had this issue before.  Husband has a patent, which may become valuable in the future.  Wife wants a share.  Husband feels she is not entitled to it because it is "his" intellectual property, plus she's a shrew.

    It's subject to equitable distribution.  Period.  In the case posed below, Wife doesn't "get" the books free and clear, just because they appear today to have little value.  Van Gogh could have made the same argument.  But at some point in the future, if value springs up, then former spouse gets ½ the spring, less costs of bringing the valuable item to market.

    Hanan

     


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    Re: Jim Dandy

    Image removed by sender. W. Thomas McDonough, Esq

    Nov 5, 2015 3:14 PM

    W. Thomas McDonough, Esq

    I would treat this under active/passive analysis. The books won't sell or generate anything unless she actively pursues publication. They have no value now but might if she makes it happen. So, he gets nothing now and she should receive them free and clear.

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    W. Thomas McDonough Esq.
    Montclair NJ
    (973)744-2100
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    Okay... Here's a nice little final exam question:

    Wife has day job and writes children's books as a hobby. She's never gotten any published, but is trying, so far unsuccessfully. Getting divorced. Husband makes a claim to ED to essentially the inchoate value. She has written ten and she has never had a book published previously. Every book was, however, written within the four corners of the 30 year long marriage. No marital funds were used, except for paper, toner cartridges envelopes, toll calls and postage.

    This is not an actual case, but an academic one. What happens next?

    ------------------------------
    Curtis Romanowski Esq.
    Senior Attorney - Proprietor
    Metuchen NJ
    (732)603-8585
    ------------------------------





     

     

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  • 15.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 05:01 PM

    I disagree and believe that the books are distinguishable from the sculpture in one example and something else somebody cited.

     

    If these books ever achieve value, it will be because the author goes out and markets them, meaning gets an agent, finds a publisher and ACTIVELY acquires value. That is different than the other examples, where the sculpture or the other thing might acquire value from somebody looking at them and buying the unique, individual piece.

     

    Currently, the books have de minimis value. Do I remember they were written more as a hobby than with a profit motive? The husband is just jerking her around. He should get nothing.

     

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  • 16.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 05:03 PM
    I think the right answer it: Who do I represent?

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  • 17.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 05:06 PM

    The win win outcome here is obvious:  they jointly market the books, and use the royalties to pay their lawyers.  Yeah, right.

    Hanan

     


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    Re: Jim Dandy

    Image removed by sender. Curtis J. Romanowski, Esq

    Nov 5, 2015 4:45 PM

    Curtis J. Romanowski, Esq

    This is why I find this to be such an interesting hypo. Okay... let's assume they both own the unpublished children's books. Can he court publishers?

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    Curtis Romanowski Esq.
    Senior Attorney - Proprietor
    Metuchen NJ
    (732)603-8585
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    In this case, the property (aka the books) was acquired (or written, rather) during the marriage BUT the books were not published during the marriage. Therefore, I think the books are subject to ED. So, I say give him a copy of all of the books for his reading pleasure. Or, the wife should retain the copies, and give him the originals (depending on where & how they are stored: comp, actual print, etc.) 

     

    That being said, he doesn't get any royalty for anything subsequently published as nothing was published during the marriage, despite her efforts. 

     

    If she eventually ends up publishing the books, he still doesn't get anything, just the copies/originals he retained. He also gets the value, if any, of having one of the first editions/drafts she ever created. That has to be worth something if she turns out to be JK Rowling, no? I would at least argue it that way if she was my client.

     

    Best,

     

    Aleksandra N. Gontaryuk, Esq.

    AG Law Group, LLC

    P.O. Box 244

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  • 18.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 05:41 PM

    Seriously, Curt.  I think you need to go back to work.

    Hanan

     


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    Re: Jim Dandy

    Image removed by sender. Curtis J. Romanowski, Esq

    Nov 5, 2015 5:31 PM

    Curtis J. Romanowski, Esq

    A patent is less inchoate than an unpublished book, although it is copyrighted when mailed with the (c) symbol. Also, the per se copyright costs nothing from marital assets, and the patent arguably does, if the lawyer (if any) was paid for with joint marital funds. This is a potentially complicated issue because the valuation piece is insanely speculative, while the fact that these kids books were 100% written during the marriage is undisputed.

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    Senior Attorney - Proprietor
    Metuchen NJ
    (732)603-8585
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    I would treat this under active/passive analysis. The books won't sell or generate anything unless she actively pursues publication. They have no value now but might if she makes it happen. So, he gets nothing now and she should receive them free and clear.



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    Montclair NJ
    (973)744-2100






     

     

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  • 19.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-05-2015 07:55 PM
    Yeah, doesn't seem like a tough call. The books were written during the marriage and value is subject to distribution - maybe 60/40 instead of 50/50 since the value is more attributable to Wife's efforts and since it might require post-complaint efforts to make the value come to fruition. Wife is just as motivated (or nearly so) to go out and aggressively market them if she's to receive 50% as she would be if she were to receive 100%.

    Or maybe argue 70/30 in Wife's favor, likening them to stock options in a closely held corporation where it will be post-complaint efforts that "causes the stock to rise" / gives value to the books? Either way, the argument is over %, not whether they're in the pot.


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  • 20.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-06-2015 04:26 AM

    It would appear that the issue is not with the first prong of Rothman:

    "In receiving and considering evidence designed to equip him to make an equitable distribution of marital assets, a trial judge enters upon a three-step proceeding. Assuming that some allocation is to be made, he must first decide what specific property of each spouse is eligible for distribution."

    That is not to say that there is not some room for creative argument. In a marriage of shorter term, for instance, particularly with fictional writing, novels, screenplays, TV concepts and such, the writer may argue that the entire idea was locked in her imagination prior to the marriage and that she eventually found the time to put pen to paper during the marriage. Arguably, however, this may be more of a third prong argument than one resisting inclusion.

    The challenge lies in prongs 2 and 3:

    "Secondly, he must determine its value for purposes of such distribution. Thirdly, he must decide how such allocation can most equitably be made."

    Then, in footnote 6:

    "The suggestion has been offered that in undertaking to effect an equitable distribution of marital assets, the trial court should, to establish a starting point, presumptively assign some proportion, generally mentioned as 50%, of all eligible assets to each spouse. We disapprove of this proposal. No basis for it is to be found in the statute itself, it would import into our law concepts now held chiefly, if not solely, in those states where community property law principles have gained acceptance, and we foresee that it might readily lead to unjust results. Rejecting any simple formula, we rather believe that each case should be examined as an individual and particular entity. The point has been well expressed in an opinion of the Supreme Court of Wisconsin, The formula for division derives from the facts of the individual case. If it is argued that this approach gives great leeway and also places a heavy responsibility on trial courts in divorce cases, there is no gainsaying that fact. However, both flexibility and responsibility are called for by the endless variety of human situations that come to court in family cases. No two are exactly alike. [Lacey v. Lacey, 45 Wis.2d 378, 173 N.W.2d 142, 145 (1970)]."

    IMO prong 2 cannot be credibly satisfied by prospective expert opinion. Far too many variables on far too many plains. There is no case law directly on point here. It would appear that the only reliable method would be to direct some sharing post-judgment, after a contract is struck and actual revenues occur.

    Prong three is the real killer! Think about it. If a book gets published and starts making money pendent lite or shortly after the divorce, that's one thing. If, on the other hand, time passes, along with additional efforts and expenses expended and incurred by the author, including perhaps agency costs, you've got a bit of a Gordian Knot on your hands, wouldn't you think? More food for thought - CJR

    6

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  • 21.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-06-2015 09:29 AM

    After re-reading the facts, I have to agree. The key to me is that the wife was trying to market them during the marriage. Thus, while she can call it a hobby, in fact she was trying to profit from it.

     

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  • 22.  RE: Jim Dandy

    Posted 11-06-2015 11:01 AM

    I think it is very much akin to stock options which have not vested but for the passage of time post judgment.  Neither the second or third prong have been established.  However, it is hard to get around the fact that the assets themselves were established during the marriage:  prong one.

     

    Think you need some literary expert opinion as to a general formula for their value which will be established in the future.  Then, the third prong will just take some negotiating.  You may start with 50/50 but that's pretty unreasonable as others have said.  But the husband has to be entitled to something.  70/30 has a nice ring to it.

     

     

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